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Topic:   What caused this? - 1994 visits (1 today, 1 this week)

Al Roden
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From:Victoria, Texas
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posted December 16, 2005 07:09 PM            

Click for photo (40917 Bytes)

[This message has been edited by Al Roden (edited December 16, 2005).]

Gunnar Alquist
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posted December 16, 2005 07:34 PM            

Looks like blunt force trauma to me.

Bob Harper
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posted December 16, 2005 07:56 PM            

I think you are looking at several things here:
-Blunt trauma smushed the termination down, thereby inhibiting flow
-thermal event destroying the paint/ powder coating. Q- long term vs. sudden?
-recirculating down under the chase top and venting out the cooling air slots.

Anys signs of a chimney fire when viewed from below? Any operational complaints? Service history?

Also, when evaluating corrosion, don't forget adjacent heater flues, bird poop and salt air (none apparent in this pic).

This is screaming for a Level II inspection and probably Level III to open the top.

Any more pics? You know how greedy I am for pics..

Al Roden
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posted December 16, 2005 08:08 PM            

Click for photo (29984 Bytes)

This is a quick picture of the damper. The owner says he never uses the fireplace. I'm picturing flames shooting out the top of that thing but I don't know why...the firebox and flue didn't look that dirty. Or maybe lightning struck it.

Al Roden
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posted December 16, 2005 08:09 PM            

Click for photo (37057 Bytes)

This is the damper picture...

Ken Bates
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posted December 16, 2005 09:53 PM            

Everything in the photo indicates this is crapsville. What should anyone expect from its crappy components? FAILURE.

Paul MacLean
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posted December 17, 2005 09:33 AM            

I would question that the cap/screen is approved for use on that chimney. I doesn't look like the chimney would draw and work correctly.

------------------
Paul in Austin
www.newdayinspections.com

Russel Ray
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posted December 17, 2005 10:08 AM            

Note that it looks like every house in the neighborhood has them.

They are quite common in my area.

Mike Schulz
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posted December 17, 2005 02:18 PM            

Drifting for a moment.
There was a topic earlier about fungus and air borne spores and how metal inner acts with it. Look at the homes in the background. Good examples.

Mike

Bob Harper
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posted December 17, 2005 05:41 PM            

This appears to be a Marco TST (trim style termination). If this is a Marco Fp, then this is the termination for it. The others in the background don't appear to be the same.

Again, this isn't just noting the cap is a mess but a Red Flag that warrants further investigation.

------------------

Ralph Pimentel
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posted March 18, 2006 04:59 PM            

Fellow Inspectors,

The cap used on this installation is not approved for a solid-fueled appliance. Metal deformation is an indication of metal stress due to excessive temperatures. A proper Class "A" termination cap and spark arrester should be installed on this fireplace.

Ralph Pimentel C.B.O.
Member ICBO, IAPMO, ICC

Rick Hurst
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posted March 18, 2006 05:07 PM            

What I'm wonder is whats going on here?
Click for photo (57138 Bytes)

Mike Schulz
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posted March 19, 2006 05:13 AM            

Rick,
That is caused from the metal zinc washing down the roof from the vent caps and metal flashing around and on top of the chimneys. The dark areas are air borne spores (fungus). The zinc keeps these areas from collecting the spores.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike Schulz (edited March 19, 2006).]

Bob Harper
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posted March 19, 2006 05:41 AM            

Ralph, again, where are you quoting from? If you know this termination is not listed for use with this particular model fireplace then yes, it is improper and should be replaced with a listed one. However, until you know it isn't you cannot call it out.
It looks very much like one of several terminations listed for various brands and models so it could be ok.

Your comment about Class A demonstrates a little confusion on your part. What is commonly known as "class A" is actually factory built chimney listed to UL103HT and carries a 2,100F rating. Almost all factory built fireplaces are listed to UL 127 under the 1,700F rating though there is an optional 2,100F test for EPA rated hybrid fireplace/ stoves and such. Regardless, you cannot put a Class A termination on a 1,700 air cooled chimney. The termination is a major component of the cooling system. Use of the proper termination allows the mfr. to predict the performance of the system and thereby maintain the listing.

It sounds as if you are confusing the two systems.

------------------

=======================================================

.

Russel Ray
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posted March 19, 2006 08:47 AM            

One can get the little degree symbol, °, by holding the ALT key down and typing 248 on the numeric keypad, not the numbers at the top of the keyboard. If that doesn't work on your specific computer or in a specific application, use ALT + 0248.

Dale W. Feb
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posted March 19, 2006 10:23 PM            

Bob,
You are right. This is a Marco TST termination approved for use on all Marco Fireplaces. This fireplace has been through a past or current chimney fire. The damage to the powder coat paint and the annealing of the stamped metal vents are both clear indicators of this sudden event. The upper vents are for the by products of ignition while the lower vents are for the cooling system of the chimney pipe. Note that damage only to the upper vents and the one corner. The corner was most likely affected due to wind direction at the time of the loss and the corner cut at that location.

Dale W. Feb,
Executive Director
Fireplace Investigation, Research & Education Service
Moorpark California & Richmond Virginia
Ph. (805) 552-9958 Fax (805) 552-9123 www.fireservice@earthlink.net www.F-I-R-E-Service.com www.FIREexchange.info

Ralph Pimentel
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posted April 29, 2006 09:22 PM            

Fellow Inspectors,

The cap used on this installation is not proper for a solid-fueled appliance. The cap does not incoropate a spark arrestor the complies with the UBC or IRC. Because the spacing between the louvers is less than minimum allowable opening of 3/8" it is not in compliance and should be subjected to further scrutiny. The lack of proper spacing between the openings of the spark arrestor, will allow creoste and deleterious material to accumulate between the louvers, thus restrcting the draft and increasing the heat and creosote accumulation within the termination cap. It should be noted that newly engineered termination caps from the company once known at Marco (now a subsidiary of The Lennox Company, have been redesigned to eliminate excessive heat and creosote levels. The new termination caps are designed to ensure adequate drafting and are engineered to withstand up to 2100F.

Factory-built chimney is commonly referred to as Class A chimney material use for venting solid-fueled appliances. It was a term created by the industry to signify compliance with the UBC standards and current UL standards, when first introduced.

Lastly, it should be noted that not all listed products and materials perform as expected in the field. Countless furnaces, water heaters, appliances and factory-built fireplace has failed when placed under actual conditions. The governmental regulating agencies of building standards and construction science have come to realize that failure can occur in a product's life at any given time. Sometimes this is the result of designed obsolescence on the part of the engineers and sometimes it is the result of unanticipated failure. As a governmental building official, a constant flow of product recalls, service notices and Consumer Product Safety Commission bulletins crossed my desk daily. The nummber was staggering. As an example, the Coleman first generation condensing furnaces failed en masse within one year of operation. Although the equipment was listed through multiple approved agencies, a nationwide recall was conducted after I discovered "pitting" was occuring within the stainless steel heat-exchangers that eventually led to openings in the heat-exchanger. This manufacturing defect was only revealed after the units were placed into operation and inspected under actual operating conditions.

The ICC and IAMPO Testing Departments always encourage reports of product failure.

Ralph Pimentel C.B.O.
Member ICBO, IAPMO, ICC

[This message has been edited by Ralph Pimentel (edited April 30, 2006).]

Bob Harper
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posted April 30, 2006 06:20 AM            

Ralph, I suggest you buy a copy of UL127 because you obviously have not read it. FYI, you are being contrary to what a manufacturer's rep. and The leading authority on fireplace inspections and investigations are saying.

The louvers ARE the spark arrestor on this cap. It IS UL listed for use with this fireplace and therefore one of only 3 caps that can be legally used with it. Class A chimney is used on only a handful of factory built fireplaces and those are EPA rated hybrid half Fp-half stoves.

You can NOT mix unlisted components with a factory built fireplace_PERIOD! To do so would be negligent and you'd be liable. To recommend it with you being such an "expert" would make you negligent. If anyone takes your advice here and suffers a loss as a result of your improper advice, you personally would be negligent. I suggest you read the listing then recant your position.

The termination on a factory built fireplace is one of the most difficult to engineer because it must pass several criteria as a spark arrestor, rain guard, animal guard, wind deflector, and still breathe. You see, the cap is part of the cooling system of the Fp. You change that and the listing goes out the window. You are defeating the engineering that went into that unit. Now, that 90F+ ambient temp. limit inside the chase just went out the window.

I think you need to do a little more homework. Might I suggest taking Dale Feb's course at the F.I.R.E. links on this site?

Just trying to watch out for you but the readers on this list as well.

------------------

=======================================================

.

Ralph Pimentel
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posted April 30, 2006 09:34 AM            

Fellow Inspectors,

I wanted to provide all of you with some additional information regarding the propriety of the chimney cap in question. It is apparent that the system is malfunctioning. When observed, these types of anamolies should be fully vetted. A Chief Materials Engineer for The Lennox Company, Hal Lutgen, has provided a wealth of information on the subject of product failure. Mr. Lutgen has encourage all building professionals to immediately report any indications of product failure not only to the manufacturer, but also to model code agecies, approved testing agencies, and the CPSC as well as other appropriate construction regulators. The ICC and IAMPO testing and listing departments require all members to report these defects as well

Although the chimney cap in question is a listed component, there are obvious indications of failure. A Certified Building Official would have a duty to record the noted defects and report them to the aforementioned agencies. A C.B.O. would then provide corrective actions based upon the review of all subsequent information provided by the manufacturer, testing agencies and model code associations.

I have been reviewing the comments on this matter and have not seen where anyone has recommended replacing the cap with an unlisted component of this fireplace. Perhaps Bob Harper can shed some light on this.

The appropriate response by a Certified Buildig Official is to determine if product failure has occurred. As previously explained with actual accounts of product failure, just because a product has been listed by an approved testing agency does not insure the product will never fail.

I have spent many years educating fireplace and chimney contractors and I have always found the regulation of fireplaces to be ever changing.

By the way Bob, I have recieved my Certifications from NFPA, ICBO and ICC. If a person is not Certified by the Model Code Associations, he has little standing as an expert in code interpretation. I have been involved in countless lawsuits where a contractor has claimed to be an expert only to leave the court with a bruised ego and summary judgement against him. Continuing education is imperative and achieving the proper credentials is a given.

I hope the information has been helpful.

Ralph Pimentel C.B.O.
Member ICBO, IAPMO, ICC

Bob Harper
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posted April 30, 2006 07:24 PM            

Ralph, you asked who has recommended replacing the cap with an unlisted component. Well, if you read back to your post on the 18th, you will see where YOU did:"A proper Class "A" termination cap and spark arrester should be installed on this fireplace." You also stated the cap pictured was not approved for solid fuel appliances yet it is the listed termination for this fireplace!

Again Ralph, Class A terminations are NOT a listed component of this fireplace. Take a manual and look at the diagram of listed components with their part numbers. You will not see a Class A termination because it was designed for a solid packed chimney and not this chimney or fireplace. Go ask Bob Zimmerman at UL if you can do what you suggest. If you block or retard the airflow at the termination, you will overheat the appliance and cause a fire!

Just because a product such as BW vent is listed for use by a mfr with all Cat. 1 gas appliances does not give it blanket approval. It must also meet the appliance mfrs. specs. The first two fireplace mfrs I checked did NOT approve BW vent. If you use it and there is a loss, there will be a transfer of liability or an assumption of risk by: the installer,the builder, the wholesaler, the vent mfr. and the code guy who told them it was ok to use because he failed to read the manual.

You also are quoted:"If a person is not Certified by the Model Code Associations, he has little standing as an expert in code interpretation." What an ass! Do you Really think everyone believes the only person who has been certified by a court to testify in such matters is a building official??? Testifying in court does not equate to winning in court. In most cases, there is at least one loser but he did testify or try to but the court threw him out in a Daubert hearing. I know of plenty of people who have testified and won in plenty of such matters. Also, about 92% of all cases never make it to court. However, consultants and experts who offer opinions can make or break a case before it gets to court and few of them are building officials.

You are really beginning to bore me with your sanctimonious attitude and self importance. BTW, while you state continuing education is imperative, it sure isn't required by your mighty IAMPO--just a check and pass a test by 75% then recert. q3 yrs at $50.00 for a 25 question open book test at home and NO CEUs. Some credential...

I'm done with you-

Phillip Stojanik
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posted April 30, 2006 08:23 PM            

Rick,

I am going to drift with you rather than debate the chimney termination.

What's happening there is that some metals such as zinc are are natural fungal inhibitors. There is just enough metal in the wash downhill of the metal flashings to inhibit the fungal growth below on the roof surfaces.

There is even a product you can buy that is nothing more than a long ribbon of gavanized sheet metal. http://www.z-stop.com/brochure.pdf

Zinc is a key ingredient in some fungal resistant paints as well.

Mike Schulz
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posted May 01, 2006 02:38 PM            

Phillip,
I believe that is what I said......

Michael Greenwalt
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posted May 01, 2006 04:56 PM            

After sitting through hours of Dale's classes and gaining 1/10th of 1% of his knowledge, I gotta say I think I will go with Dale on this one. I'm not sure if your a fellow inspector or code enforcement but I have not found the trailing acronyms to be any guarantee of accuracy. I do however trust a guy with over 15,000 fireplace inspections and true knowledge of the componts of a fireplace.
Just my 2cents now I will go back to my corner.