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Topic:   Couple service panel Questions - 1616 visits (1 today, 2 this week)

Martin lehman
Member


Posts: 175
From:SAN DIEGO, CA
Registered: Mar 2005

posted December 16, 2005 10:05 PM            

What is the reason dissimilar breakers can be a problem, like in the pic below?

Also, are the branch circuits OK bunched up like that?

Thanks 'yall

Click for photo (251381 Bytes)
Click for photo (304905 Bytes)

John Arnold
Member


Posts: 607
From:Philadelphia PA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted December 17, 2005 05:10 AM            

Using breakers not specified by the manufacturer can void the warranty.
Did the cover fit ok over those breakers?

Martin lehman
Member


Posts: 175
From:SAN DIEGO, CA
Registered: Mar 2005

posted December 17, 2005 07:34 AM            

John, thanks for the reply - and yes the dead front did fit but not properly. As you can tell the different breakers are a bit larger.

Gerry Beaumont
Member


Posts: 479
From:Rochester NH & Clearwater FL
Registered: Jan 2003

posted December 17, 2005 08:24 AM            

Hi to all,

Breakers, like any other piece of equipment are UL listed for specific installations, I cannot believe that any breaker that caused a panel front to fit poorly could possibly be UL listed for the application, and would therefore be wrong.

Regards

Gerry

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Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education
http://www.nachi.org

John Steinke
Member


Posts: 124
From:Reno, Nv.
Registered: Jul 2003

posted December 17, 2005 09:23 AM            

The "void warranty" buggaboo is a red herring thrown out by one manufacturer, whose position is most strongly disputed by UL.

UL does "classify" a variety of breakers to go into the panels of other manufacturers. Semantics aside, there is absolutley no safety,or code, issue with placing a "classified" breaker in a panel. A visit to the UL site will clarify whether a particular breaker is appropriate for a panel.

In other words, just because the breaker are from different manufacturers does not mean there is something wrong. More research is required.

Brent Koerting
Member


Posts: 99
From:Ramona, CA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted December 17, 2005 10:27 AM            

It has more to do with than UL listing. Code requires everything in an entire raceway to be rated for use with one another. If you want to get picky a sub panel down the line would need to be rated for the main panel etc. That includes breakers, the breaker has to be rated for use in that panel. What that generally means is if you want to get picky again the panels generally only rate their own breakers for their panels, making the use of other brands against code. Doing building inspection I generally don't call out the use of a different brand of breaker unless it doesn't fit the dead front properly then I will use the rating for a reason to force them to install the rated breakers. GE seams common for this the dead front design it slightly more different.

Mike Schulz
Member


Posts: 343
From:Fuquay Varina, NC
Registered: Jan 2003

posted December 17, 2005 01:58 PM            

From your picture that panel has neutrals and grounds mixed together. It doesn't appear to be service equipment? Neutrals need isolated from the grounds.
Mike

Jerry Peck
Member




Posts: 7895
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

posted December 17, 2005 02:08 PM            

John S., said:

quote:

---

The "void warranty" buggaboo is a red herring thrown out by one manufacturer, whose position is most strongly disputed by UL.
UL does "classify" a variety of breakers to go into the panels of other manufacturers. Semantics aside, there is absolutley no safety,or code, issue with placing a "classified" breaker in a panel. A visit to the UL site will clarify whether a particular breaker is appropriate for a panel.

In other words, just because the breaker are from different manufacturers does not mean there is something wrong. More research is required.

---

There is a conflict with what UL says and what UL says, there is also a conflict with what the NEC says and what the NEC says.

I.e., UL says that breakers which are classified for use in the panels which they are classified for use, are okay to be used there ... UL ALSO says that the given, tested, listed and labeled panel MUST be used as it was tested, listed, and labeled (which was ONLY done with the proper breakers in it).

The NEC says everything MUST be installed and used IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS listing - i.e., ONLY with ITS own breakers.

Brent said:

quote:

---

Code requires everything in an entire raceway to be rated for use with one another. If you want to get picky a sub panel down the line would need to be rated for the main panel etc.

---

I beg to differ, the code does not say that.

The code does require everything downstream from an overcurrent device to be AT LEAST that rating, but separate manufacturer equipment can be mixed with another manufacturer's equipment, i.e., you can have a Square D panel next to and feeding a GE panel, which is next to and feeding a Siemens panel ... as long as EACH is installed and used in accordance with its listing and labeling.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

Martin lehman
Member


Posts: 175
From:SAN DIEGO, CA
Registered: Mar 2005

posted December 17, 2005 04:24 PM            

Thanks for the help everyone.
So the only reason that this should be called out is basically that the panel was only tested with this type of breaker, eventhough many ohters will do just fine?
Mike the panel is a service panel.

Jerry Peck
Member




Posts: 7895
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

posted December 17, 2005 05:41 PM            

"even though many others will do just fine?"

Define "just fine" for the Judge, the jury would also like to hear your explanation of it.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

Jim Vaughn
Member


Posts: 74
From:ARLINGTON VA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted December 17, 2005 10:14 PM            

Next time you're at a supply house or home center that has boxes and breakers on display, take a little time to look at the breakers. If one company is manufacturing breakers that fit another maker's panel, they're marked as such and they'll look about the same, or at least have pretty much identical attachment points.

The problem I usually encounter with off brand breakers is unless they are designed for the box (panel) they're being used in, they may not fit properly. If they don't fit right, arcing can result. I've seen plenty of panels that had to be replaced because they were totally damaged by breakers that didn't attach properly to the buss.

The circuits can be bundled for 24 inches (I think). The hole in the bottom of the box should have a cover installed.

[This message has been edited by Jim Vaughn (edited December 17, 2005).]

Richard Shaffer
New Member


Posts: 7
From:Marblehead, Ma.
Registered: Nov 2005

posted December 19, 2005 11:46 AM            

any time a panel cover does not fit properly because of breaker size you obviously have a problem.

Brent Koerting
Member


Posts: 99
From:Ramona, CA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted December 20, 2005 06:05 AM            

Well I can tell you we just got over a battle where a manufacturer of a sub panel for swimming pools had to go and get a different brand labled with it's panel to use down stream of that brand. The brand of panel has to say it's okay what to use down stream of that panel and put it in it's listing.

John Steinke
Member


Posts: 124
From:Reno, Nv.
Registered: Jul 2003

posted December 20, 2005 06:33 AM            

Jerry, perhaps you are not aware of some of the details behind the "different brand breaker" issue.

UL does, in fact, test breakers for specific panels. If a breaker is intended to be used in panels A, B, and C..it is tested in panels A, B, and C.
Until fairly recently, no one had bothered to submit their breakers with any panels but their own. This all changes when one guy- an overseas firm who had no intention of making panels- submitted their breakers with sample panels from a panel maker. The breakers passed with flying colors, UL "listed" them...and the panel maker nearly had a stroke.
As a bone to throw the panel maker, UL agreed to refer to these breakers as "classified," rather than "listed." A distinction without a difference.

Since then, many manufacturers- Cutler Hammer in particular- have gone into the business of making breakers for other folks' panels.

As far as UL is concerned, there is absolutely no additional risk in using a "classified" breaker in place of a "listed" one.

Jerry Peck
Member




Posts: 7895
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

posted December 20, 2005 07:03 AM            

John,

"Jerry, perhaps you are not aware of some of the details behind the "different brand breaker" issue."

I do understand it, perhaps you do not. Like your post on not-having-a-problem-with-FPE?

Yes, some manufacturers have sent THEIR breakers to UL to be tested in samples of panels from other manufacturers.

Yes, when those breakers pass "with flying colors", they are "classified" for use in those panels.

However, NO, when GE submits THEIR PANEL for listing and labeling with only THEIR BREAKERS in it, and THEN PANEL is not listed and labeled, THE PANEL is ONLY listed and labeled for use with their breakers.

Now, going back to the NEC: (bold and underlining is mine)
- 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
- - (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

No where in there does it say those PANELS are allowed to use THE OTHER breakers.

Yes. THOSE breakers are "classified" to be used in THE OTHER panels, but one MUST NOT forget that there are two components being used, and the listing and labeling FOR BOTH must be maintained and followed.

As I said, a conflict between UL and UL, and a conflict between the NEC and the NEC.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

Russel Ray
Member



Posts: 2758
From:San Diego, California
Registered: May 2002

posted December 20, 2005 09:33 AM            

quote:

---

Well I can tell you we just got over a battle where a manufacturer of a sub panel for swimming pools had to go and get a different brand labled with it's panel to use down stream of that brand. The brand of panel has to say it's okay what to use down stream of that panel and put it in it's listing.

---

I read that post earlier this morning and had to take off to the Home Depot down the road from me. I couldn't find any panel that had any sort of a listing as to how it was to be used with any other panel. There were quite a few panels that listed breakers from other companies.

Perhaps it was because it was a swimming pool panel, although I still don't understand how one brand of panel can tell the difference in how electricity is delivered to it from a different brand of panel. Seems like the wiring would be the key element there, not the panel.

If you have the opportunity to go back out there, take a picture of the labeling and post it for us.

Jerry Peck
Member




Posts: 7895
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

posted December 20, 2005 10:08 AM            

Brent,

I was going to let this go by, but Russel picked it out, so ...

"Well I can tell you we just got over a battle where a manufacturer of a sub panel for swimming pools had to go and get a different brand labled with it's panel to use down stream of that brand. The brand of panel has to say it's okay what to use down stream of that panel and put it in it's listing."

First: Who is "we"?

Second: Someone is full of crap for saying that as there are no requirements for that ... (there aren't).

... oh wait, there is that "subpanel" thing again, you know, MAYBE, just maybe, if they had used "a panel" and not a "subpanel", there may not have been any problems.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

Gunnar Alquist
Member



Posts: 1023
From:Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted December 21, 2005 05:27 PM            

Poor Gunnar, he is having problems identifying a service equipment panel.

Here is the situation. Office building. Honkin' big SERVICE EQUIPMENT panel is located in a room at the left/rear of the building. Service Equipment (47638 Bytes) One giant main disconnect present at one side of the SERVICE EQUIPMENT panel. Main Disconnect (34911 Bytes) Each offic suite has its own disconnect and meter.

The question? There is a separate panel (about 3' away) with a meter and main disconnect for the "house" in the same room. House Panel (42009 Bytes) I am unable to determine if this is fed from the honkin' big panel because the conduits are (probably is) or if it has its own supply. There was no disconnect switch for this panel on the SERVICE EQUIPMENT panel. Neutral and ground are connected together as if this were a service equipment panel, however if this is fed from the "real" service equipment, then the neutral and ground wires should be isolated? Which is it?

Should the "house" panel be considered "service equipment"?

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If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one?
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)

Jerry Peck
Member




Posts: 7895
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

posted December 21, 2005 05:57 PM            

Poor, poor, Gunnar,

It matter not that there is a honkin' big service equipment present and a much smaller tweetin' small service equipment next to it.

There should be a main disconnect in the honkin' big service equipment OR a main disconnect in each service disconnect, in which EACH must be labeled to the effect of "Main Disconnect 1 of 2 Main Disconnects" and Main Disconnect 2 of 2 Main Disconnects".

Then just add up the main disconnects and there should be less than 7 (not more than 6). This allows the house service equipment to have 5 separate circuits if there is but ONE main disconnect in that thar honkin' big 'un.

Many times, the "house" panel is off the "Main" in the service equipment, in which case the neutral would be isolated from ground. Sounds like that "house" panel is also service equipment and the neutral does not get isolated from ground, it gets bonded to ground, like you found it.

There also should not be ANY storage in the electrical room, not even that weed eater, nor the cleaning supplies propped up on two meters (or the cleaning bucket hanging over on the right).

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

Byron Lentz
New Member


Posts: 7
From:Tulsa, Oklahoma
Registered: Jun 2005

posted December 21, 2005 06:17 PM            

Quite often when an extra circut is needed, but the panel does not have room for addional brakers, a thin two pole has been known to be modified to fit. I can't tell you why I know that but I think i would have an electrician check this one out.

Gunnar Alquist
Member



Posts: 1023
From:Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted December 21, 2005 06:20 PM            

Jerry,

Thanks. I always forget to mention clutter. I will have to tie yet another string around yet another finger to remind me. My problem is that I keep forgetting what all of them darned strings are for!