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Topic:   Code for closet lite fixture - 1853 visits (1 today, 2 this week)

Dan Harris
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Posts: 58
From:Mesa Az
Registered: Sep 2003

home inspection posted December 06, 2005 03:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan Harris   Click Here to Email Dan Harris     Edit/Delete Message


Help! I've been writing up no lite fixtures in new home walk in storage under stairs closets for two years, wrote 20 plus and builder installed them.
Today a customer called and said the electrican never heard of that requirment and the local inspector passed it. He refused to do any thing with out a code reference.
The reference I used to determine this is in the code check book. UBC {210-70a}, is this one to give him or are there any others. From what I read the IRC doesn't clearly state that a light is required unless there is a panel that needs servicing in the closet.
Thanks
Dan

[This message has been edited by Dan Harris (edited December 06, 2005).]

Jeff Pope
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Posts: 231
From:Santa Clarita, CA
Registered: Feb 2005

home inspection posted December 06, 2005 05:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jeff Pope   Click Here to Email Jeff Pope     Edit/Delete Message


NEC 210.70 (A)(3) Storage or Equipment Spaces

For attics, underfloor spaces, utility rooms and basements, at least one lighting outlet containing a switch or controlled by a wall switch shall be installed where these spaces are used for storage or contain equipment requiring servicing.

------------------
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
Santa Clarita, CA

[This message has been edited by Jeff Pope (edited December 06, 2005).]

Jerry Peck
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From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

home inspection posted December 06, 2005 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


To finish Jeff's code reference. (bold is the continuation)

- 210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
- - (A) Dwelling Units.
- - - (3) Storage or Equipment Spaces. For attics, underfloor spaces, utility rooms, and basements, at least one lighting outlet containing a switch or controlled by a wall switch shall be installed where these spaces are used for storage or contain equipment requiring servicing. At least one point of control shall be at the usual point of entry to these spaces. The lighting outlet shall be provided at or near the equipment requiring servicing.

------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Dan Harris
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Posts: 58
From:Mesa Az
Registered: Sep 2003

home inspection posted December 06, 2005 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan Harris   Click Here to Email Dan Harris     Edit/Delete Message


Thanks Jeff and Jerry.
Like some one mentioned on another topic, this BB is great.

Russell Spornberger
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Posts: 22
From:Atlanta, GA
Registered: Nov 2003

home inspection posted December 18, 2005 03:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russell Spornberger   Click Here to Email Russell Spornberger     Edit/Delete Message


Hey Dan! Good call on the closet light! Just a word of caution however, I think when you reference code you should be sure it is the code adopted by the AHJ where you happen to be inspecting otherwise some knowledgeable sub or builder is going to hammer you.

Erby Crofutt
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Posts: 1114
From:Georgetown, Kentucky
Registered: Mar 2002

home inspection posted December 19, 2005 04:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erby Crofutt   Click Here to Email Erby Crofutt     Edit/Delete Message


I don't care whether it's been adopted locally or not. If it's right and common sense, I'll tell them about it. Just can't use the "code violation" language. (See second to last paragraph.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BUILDING CODES:
Remember that the building code is developed by nationwide experts in particular topic areas. It is then sent to the state where some homebuilders, a few experts, and politicians decide what is going to be enforced in the state. It is then sent to the local level where mostly home builders and politicians decide what’s going to be enforced locally. Is then given to the code enforcement inspectors to interpret according to how they read the code. In addition, the local code often lags several years behind the national codes.

The building code is not a lofty standard. It is the bare minimum legal standard that a home builder, electrician, plumber, etc, must comply with. To do anything less would be illegal.

B4U Close Home Inspections services a large area of Kentucky with many different building code enforcement authorities, each with their own individual interpretations of the national and state building codes based on their local politics and beliefs. I cannot be completely conversant with each and every building code enforcement authority's interpretation of the national building codes; therefore B4U Close Home Inspections does not perform code compliance inspections nor guarantee that all items are in compliance with governing codes, regulations, ordinances, statutes, covenants and manufacturer specifications.

My references and sources for calling out different items as a safety concern or defective or marginal or in need of repair may include the national building codes (International Residential Code / National Electric Code / Uniform Plumbing Code, etc), manufacturer's instructions, the building industry's standards, continuing education, and personal experience.

If the response to an area of concern or a recommendation in our report is, “Well, they didn't have that (or they didn't do that) when the house was built,” I know that. However, during the ensuing years, our knowledge has increased considerably concerning safety in the home. I believe that you should be safe in your home and that taking care of your home should be as easy as possible. So I will recommend things that they didn’t have or do years ago simply to keep you safe or help you take care of your home. Just because I recommend it, doesn’t mean you can expect the seller to pay for it. What’s most important to me is that you and your family are as safe as possible in your home.

Note that the Kentucky Home Builders Association lobbyists managed to have the Kentucky State Legislature include the following in the Kentucky Home Inspector Licensing Law:

Kentucky Revised Statutes (KRS) Chapter 198B.738
”Home inspectors are prohibited from indicating in writing in the initial home inspection report that any condition is not in compliance with any building code enforced under KRS Chapter 198B.”

Therefore, if you think an issue might be a code violation, you need to consult your local building code enforcement department for a determination.
If you have any questions, please call me.
=======================

------------------
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections & Kentucky Radon Testing
Georgetown, Kentucky

www.b4uclose.com

Dan Harris
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Posts: 58
From:Mesa Az
Registered: Sep 2003

home inspection posted December 19, 2005 06:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan Harris   Click Here to Email Dan Harris     Edit/Delete Message


This one had a different twist to it. I am also relucant to call out codes. Normally when I find the light missing my first recommendation is check if the model and or you neighbors with the same model have the light installed. The model did have a light installed. In the past that alone did get the light installed.
On this one the builders response was that the light is an option. The problem was the customer did not find that option listed and builder could not produce documentation of that option.
The customer called me last week and thanked me for the info. builder is installing lite next week.

Russell Spornberger
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Posts: 22
From:Atlanta, GA
Registered: Nov 2003

home inspection posted December 21, 2005 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russell Spornberger   Click Here to Email Russell Spornberger     Edit/Delete Message


Erby, all those other things you talk about referencing are great. But as you note the code adopted is the LEGAL requirement. The point I was trying to make is a simple one, IF you are going to reference code on new construction you better cite the code that has been adopted for the area. Citing codes that have not been adopted in the particular area leaves it wide open for the builder to refuse to correct the item and the courts are most likely going to side with the builder if it goes that far. What are you going to say to the client when the builder says he is not going to correct an item because you the inspector cited the wrong code? "I'm sorry" or What are you going to say to the other sides attorney when he asks you why you cited a code that had not been adopted by the AHJ? "Its my opinion that this is code is better..."?

Regarding the Kentucky law, I am sorry to hear that In Boone Country our brother and sister home inspectors are being denied the right of free speech!! I am sure one day that will get reversed. I wonder if any other states have similar prohibitions; would like to hear from inspectors in other states on that issue.

Happy Inspecting!

Jerry Peck
Member
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Posts: 7924
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

home inspection posted December 21, 2005 04:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


Russell,

"Citing codes that have not been adopted in the particular area leaves it wide open for the builder to refuse to correct the item"

Yeah, like the builder would correct it otherwise? Get real.

"and the courts are most likely going to side with the builder if it goes that far."

That is the truth of the matter, and the truth of that matter is that NOT fixing something in a "NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED CODE" is NOT going to get it to court, unless the client just has waaayyy to many dollars and very little sense.

"What are you going to say to the client when the builder says he is not going to correct an item because you the inspector cited the wrong code?"

I would tell them that this is based on a "NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED CODE" for a very good reason. And THAT is why "it should" be done.

"I'm sorry"

No need to. Not any more than if you call something out without ANY CODE back up, what are YOU going to tell YOUR client when the builder says "I don't have to fix that." Are you going to say "He doesn't."?

Those arguments have been used before to try to justify NOT using code as a reference, by those arguments did not, and still do not, hold any water.

Erby "is not allowed" to reference code in his "first" home inspection report, don't know if he does in a "follow-up" report.

"or What are you going to say to the other sides attorney when he asks you why you cited a code that had not been adopted by the AHJ? "Its my opinion that this is code is better..."?"

Anyone referencing code would have a better shot at getting something for their client by referencing code than by just saying "*I* think this needs to be done.", which IS what is being said without a code back up.

HOW FAR do you think that will get YOU in court answering those same questions?

I'd guess "not very far".

Those are lame excuses (not even "reasons") for NOT referencing code. But there are some who will continue to feel they are better off not referencing code, so be it.

------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Russell Spornberger
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Posts: 22
From:Atlanta, GA
Registered: Nov 2003

home inspection posted December 21, 2005 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russell Spornberger   Click Here to Email Russell Spornberger     Edit/Delete Message


Hey Jerry,

In the Atlanta area you are not going to get a builder to correct something unless you cite the code or manufacturer's instructions.
The whole issue of citing codes has just evolved differently in Georgia than apparently it has in other areas. I want to say more but don't have time right now. I will follow up later.

In Georgia, alot can get done inexpensively and quickly in small claims court; a small claim can go up $15,000.00 here. You are right though, the number of things that ever get elevated to lawsuit is probably minimal. However the report is a matter of record and I would rather have cited the code adopted in my report than a code that has absolutely NO LEGAL STANDING.

I noticed that "initial inspection" wording too. Like to hear from Erby what that means. Does that mean in round two the inspector can cite code?

Thanks for your thoughtful reply (as usual, all your replies seem thoughtful).

Russell

Erby Crofutt
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Posts: 1114
From:Georgetown, Kentucky
Registered: Mar 2002

home inspection posted December 21, 2005 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erby Crofutt   Click Here to Email Erby Crofutt     Edit/Delete Message


It's only prohibited in the "initial home inspection report". Doesn't say anything about secondary or follow-up reports.

Here's an example of a recent follow-up I had posted in another thread.

==========================
I just had a similar issue. Hope this helps someone.

Stairs without guards! (21385 Bytes)


The client called back saying the builder refused to fix it because it wasn't "required" and the City Building Department had inspected and approved the house.

My reply was:
===========================
Dear xxxxxxxxx,

The following information is provided in response to your question:

(The following caveats applies to this discussion)

The “Building Code is NOT a great and lofty standard. They are merely the minimum legal standards, to do anything less would be illegal.

Are you paying a “minimum standard price” for this house. Let the answer to that question help guide your decisions.

I don’t enforce or quote local building codes. See the original report notes regarding building codes and their local enforcement.

References quoted are from the 2000 International Residential Code as adopted by the State of Kentucky.

A. Guardrail at stairs from garage to house.
I didn’t measure the height of the house floor above the garage floor because my common sense tells me that if your small children are trying to walk down this staircase, there’s a good chance of them losing their grip on the handrail, if they have a grip, and falling sideways over the side of the staircase. If they fall, they’ll be hurting. Common sense and the safety of your children outweighs ANY building code in my mind. This should not be a “minimum standards issue, it is a child safety issue, and you are moving four of them into the house.

Guardrail is “required” by Kentucky State Building Code if the distance is more than 30 inches from the floor of the garage to the floor of the house.
I don’t know whether the xxxxxxxxx Building department will enforce this issue if it doesn’t meet code, but note that even though the code inspector may have passed the overall condition of the house, the outlets at the rear deck and the crawl space were not GFCI protected. Wasn’t there an electrical inspection sticker on the electrical panel. Remember how overworked the building inspectors are? It is very possible they missed this, just like it’s possible I may have missed something. NONE of us are perfect

R316.1: Guards required. Porches, balconies or raised floor surfaces located more than 30 inches (762 mm) above the floor or grade below shall have guards not less than 36 inches (914 mm) in height. Open sides of stairs with a total rise of more than 30 inches above the floor or grade below shall have guards not less than 34 inches (864 mm) in height measured vertically from the nosing of the treads.

R316.2: Guard opening limitations. Required guards on open sides of stairways, raised floor areas, balconies and porches shall have intermediate rails or ornamental closures that do not allow passage of a sphere 4 inches (102 mm) in diameter. Required guards shall not be constructed with horizontal rails or other ornamental pattern that results in a ladder effect.
i. Exception: The triangular opening formed by the riser, tread and bottom rail of a guard at the open side of a stairway are permitted to be of such a size that a sphere 6 inches (152 mm) cannot pass through.

I recommend that you contact the xxxxxxxxx Building Department and ask their opinion on this.

BUT, the bottom line should be this question "What is safe for my family?"

If you have any questions, or need further information, please contact me.
==============================
The original report about building codes had this.
==============================
BUILDING CODES:
Remember that the building code is developed by nationwide experts in particular topic areas. It is then sent to the state where some homebuilders, a few experts, and politicians decide what is going to be enforced in the state. It is then sent to the local level where mostly home builders and politicians decide what’s going to be enforced locally. Is then given to the code enforcement inspectors to interpret according to how they read the code. In addition, the local code often lags several years behind the national codes.

The building code is not a lofty standard. It is the bare minimum legal standard that a home builder, electrician, plumber, etc, must comply with. To do anything less would be illegal.

B4U Close Home Inspections services a large area of Kentucky with many different building code enforcement authorities, each with their own individual interpretations of the national and state building codes based on their local politics and beliefs. I cannot be completely conversant with each and every building code enforcement authority's interpretation of the national building codes; therefore B4U Close Home Inspections does not perform code compliance inspections nor guarantee that all items are in compliance with governing codes, regulations, ordinances, statutes, covenants and manufacturer specifications.

My references and sources for calling out different items as a safety concern or defective or marginal or in need of repair may include the national building codes (International Residential Code / National Electric Code / Uniform Plumbing Code, etc), manufacturer's instructions, the building industry's standards, continuing education, and personal experience.

If the response to an area of concern or a recommendation in our report is, “Well, they didn't have that (or they didn't do that) when the house was built,” I know that. However, during the ensuing years, our knowledge has increased considerably concerning safety in the home. I believe that you should be safe in your home and that taking care of your home should be as easy as possible. So I will recommend things that they didn’t have or do years ago simply to keep you safe or help you take care of your home. Just because I recommend it, doesn’t mean you can expect the seller to pay for it. What’s most important to me is that you and your family are as safe as possible in your home.

Note that the Kentucky Home Builders Association lobbyists managed to have the Kentucky State Legislature include the following in the Kentucky Home Inspector Licensing Law:

Kentucky Revised Statutes (KRS) Chapter 198B.738
”Home inspectors are prohibited from indicating in writing in the initial home inspection report that any condition is not in compliance with any building code enforced under KRS Chapter 198B.”
Therefore, if you think an issue might be a code violation, you need to consult your local building code enforcement department for a determination.

If you have any questions, please call me.
============================

When I did a reinspection of some other issues, this one had been fixed and a guardrail properly installed.

------------------
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections & Kentucky Radon Testing
Georgetown, Kentucky

www.b4uclose.com

[This message has been edited by Erby Crofutt (edited December 21, 2005).]

Richard Stanley
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From:Corpus Christi, TX
Registered: Sep 2002

home inspection posted December 22, 2005 06:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Stanley   Click Here to Email Richard Stanley     Edit/Delete Message


I think you could save a step or 2 by referring the client to an addendum to the original report in which you could include all of the code comments that you desired to. The addendum would be transmitted right along with the original.

Jerry Peck
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From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

home inspection posted December 22, 2005 07:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jerry Peck   Click Here to Email Jerry Peck     Edit/Delete Message


quote:
Kentucky Revised Statutes (KRS) Chapter 198B.738
”Home inspectors are prohibited from indicating in writing in the initial home inspection report that any condition is not in compliance with any building code enforced under KRS Chapter 198B.”

The way I would do it would be to have a ONE PAGE "Initial home inspection report" with a "secondary home inspection report" to follow, and referenced in the "initial home inspection report" (each labeled as such), then (as Richard said) send them both together to the client.

Now, I would have fulfilled the legal requirements of "not quoting code" in the "initial" report, but then quoted code in the "secondary" report.

That silly limitation now becomes worthless.

------------------
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Russell Spornberger
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Posts: 22
From:Atlanta, GA
Registered: Nov 2003

home inspection posted December 22, 2005 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Russell Spornberger   Click Here to Email Russell Spornberger     Edit/Delete Message


Where's the ACLU when you need them?

Erby Crofutt
Member
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Posts: 1114
From:Georgetown, Kentucky
Registered: Mar 2002

home inspection posted December 23, 2005 05:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erby Crofutt   Click Here to Email Erby Crofutt     Edit/Delete Message


Its already worthless for those who care to make it so.

For the lazy ones, its just an excuse.

------------------
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections & Kentucky Radon Testing
Georgetown, Kentucky

www.b4uclose.com

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