Author

Topic:   Leaky roofs - 1654 visits (1 today, 2 this week)

Andy Lambert
Member


Posts: 108
From:Providence RI
Registered: Aug 2005

posted December 19, 2005 12:21 PM            

What is it with these "former" clients that call you after a year and tell you they have a leak in their roof? I'm sick and tired of people looking for a free roof the minute they have a leak. I just got a call from a guy whose home I inspected in February of 2005 and here it is December of 2005 and he contacted the agent about a roof leak he has. The agent called me of course to smooth it over with him.

Why should I? The inspection was a snapshot of the conditions existing at the time of the inspection. I'm not stupid enough to make my clients think that their roof will not leak but how are we to know as inspectors? We can't see in the future and everything looked fine at the time of the inspection and appearently was fine all last spring, summer, and fall.

I'm going to have to tell these people to stand in line if they want to sue me. Enough is enough. This guy is not planning on suing me (that I know of) but why do these people do it? If it leaks right after an inspection then I would understand but not almost a year later. Am I right to be fed up with these sue happy people?
Andy

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Andy Lambert

Jerry Peck
Member




Posts: 7877
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

posted December 19, 2005 01:27 PM            

Andy,

"Am I right to be fed up with these sue happy people?"

Depends.

How do you call, write-up, advise, whatever, your client when the roof is not leaking at the time of your inspection, but may be nearing the end of its life, may even have a couple of years left in it?

A) The roof has some life left in it.

B) The roof has some life left in it, but may need replacing withing 1-2 years.

C) The roof has some life left in it, but may need replacing within the year.

D) The roof has little life left in it, with some maintenance and repairs you may get some more life out of it.

E) The roof really has little or no life left in it, may not even last the year, and needs to be replaced.

F) The roof needs to be replaced because ...

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

Andy Lambert
Member


Posts: 108
From:Providence RI
Registered: Aug 2005

posted December 19, 2005 01:59 PM            

There lies my problem Jerry. Thankfully I have gone the way of the computerized inspection software. These programs tend to protect me from myself. Last year all I did was list a roof as either "good", fair" or "bad". Of course I would elaborate on any negative findings but I have been realizing that being too general in my description was not good because if I listed a roof as good (meaning at the time of the inspection) clients took it to mean it was good forever!
I have smartened up since and stay clear of giving an estimate of remaining roof shingle life expectencies.

"B) The roof has some life left in it, but may need replacing withing 1-2 years." What if it leaks in less than a year? What if a big storm blows off a couple of shingles and the roof leaks after six months? I know they will come after me. I can't guarantee that a roof won't leak even an hour after I leave the property. Although I am more confortable in knowing that the roof is good for another year or two why would I want to put that in writting? My software now says "appears acceptable" when I click on the roof condition and if I find it ok.

Does the word "appears" save me? I'm not so sure. I already had to pay for half a roof this year just to avoid litigation even though I know the roof was fine when I inspected it. It costs more to litigate than it does to pay to have it repaired and this is where the problem lies. I don't carry E&O due to the outragous costs and besides, even if I did, one claim and it would shoot up through the roof (no pun intended). I am going to let this one roll off my back which is not easy for me to do but it's about time I stick up to these deadbeats I think. I mean, what did the disclosure say? Was it mentioned that it leaked? How come it never leaked until after I inspected it? Hmmm it makes one wonder.

Jerry Peck
Member




Posts: 7877
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

posted December 19, 2005 05:36 PM            

Andy,

Post here what you wrote in your report on that house, and the roof photos you took.

We may be able to help you with wording which will keep you out of trouble (I have a feeling what needs to be done, but am withholding that until I know more).

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

Andy Lambert
Member


Posts: 108
From:Providence RI
Registered: Aug 2005

posted December 19, 2005 08:19 PM            

I wasn't taking photos at the time therefore I have none to post. I have come a long way in the past 10 months but my past keeps haunting me. I purchased software and a new digital camera that I can connect to my printer and now I take photos as well. Like I said, all my report shows is "good" "fair", or "poor".

There was no narrative and I did that on purpose because I thought I was being clever but I guess not as these peole are always a step ahead of you it seems. I didn't want to give a date as I didn't want to get pinned down but it is having a reverse effect also. If I'm too general I get bit and if I get too specific I get bit also.

You have to be an attorney to write your own forms and this is why I purchased the software. I now realize that it's all on how it's worded. It can make the difference between winning or losing a lawsuit. I thought at the time if I wrote up a roof as "good" it meant while you I were there and not a year later.

There are different types of defects which was explained to me on this site by someone (sorry I forgot who but I think it was Rick) who sent me some great information on. I think it was called "patent defects verses latent defects. One is unforseen like wires inside a wall and the other is visual in nature. We are only responsible for the visual so if it looked good on inspection day (and for another 9 months thereafter)the inspection should be considered a success. Anyway I can use your help Jerry if you care to share it with me.
Thanks
Andy

Rick Hurst
Member



Posts: 3775
From:Rockwall, TX
Registered: Oct 2003

posted December 19, 2005 09:02 PM            

Andy,

I know how you feel. Probably all of us receive this same kind of call every once in a while.

The words that will scare one the most is when you answer hello and they come back with " You inspected my house several months ago and....."

You just automatically think OMG what did I miss.

As for as your post, I have learned over the years to mentioned things like "... on the day of this inspection...." or " No visible defects were found...."

Always mention also if it was not raining the day of this inspection so roof leaks cannot be determined. Roofs don't leak on sunny days.

Sometimes I ask persons if they even took the time to read my report completely. Did they see my statement that is in bold that no warranty or estimate of longevity for the roof covering is expressed. Most will answer you no everytime.

Ask them did they read in your disclosure that the inspection was like a picture in time captured while you were there.

All things change with time as does their roof and now they have a leak and need to address it. Welcome to home ownership I say.

Rick

Andy Lambert
Member


Posts: 108
From:Providence RI
Registered: Aug 2005

posted December 19, 2005 10:58 PM            

Ha-Ha I know those words well! This came from an agent whom my client had called to chew out and complain about the roof. Of course the agent called me and after almost fifteen minutes of "Gee things are really picking up were going to be calling you soon" I got a "oh by the way remember the cop who's home you inspected? well he called me and said his roof is leaking so I told him I would contact you and here's his number, call him".

The cop has my number. If he wanted to chew me out he would have called me instead. I'm not calling him because that may make matters worse for myself because then it will look like I'm guilty of something. The agent is a slimeball like many are. I know he is just trying to pawn him off on me. I was a cop at one time too so I know he won't come after me because as "brothers" we stick together. I feel bad about his roof leaking but I ain't taking no responsibility for it is all.

Andy

Michael Greenwalt
Member


Posts: 20
From:Milford KS
Registered: Sep 2005

posted December 20, 2005 06:31 AM            

I sometimes include the phrase "roof is at or near the end of its usefull life" if there is evidence that the shingles either are, or appear to be, near the end. I tend to shy away from putting a time frame as the old saying goes "shingles don't leak, holes in shingles leak". I remember Dan Bowers showing me pictures of a terrible looking roof that he had written up would last less than a year and five years later he inspected the same house for another buyer and the same roof was there without any signs of leaking. Roofs and foundations, two difficult areas that I spend a larger percentage of time on with and LOTS of pictures. Good luck with your recall.

Jerry Peck
Member




Posts: 7877
From:Pembroke Pines, FL
Registered: Feb 2003

posted December 20, 2005 06:37 AM            

Andy,

"I have come a long way in the past 10 months but my past keeps haunting me. I purchased software and a new digital camera that I can connect to my printer and now I take photos as well. Like I said, all my report shows is "good" "fair", or "poor"."

I see ... you may have made the right moves away from those situations, but you have to get away from the past.

The right moves would include just coming right out and stating that the roof needs blah, blah, blah, HOWEVER, IT REALLY NEEDS TO BE REPLACED (that would replace your fair-to-poor. Your "poor" should have been replaced with "replace roof".

"Fair" should be replaced with something like a blanket statement 'we only selectively walked the roof and this is what we found in those areas', then list everything you found 'blah, blah, blah needs to be repaired, along with any and all other areas the roofer finds while making those repairs, roofer should check entire roof for areas needing repair, the roof has limited remaining life'.

"Good" should be replaced with something like a blanket statement 'we only selectively walked the roof and this is what we found in those areas' then list everything you found 'blah, blah, blah needs to be repaired, along with any and all other areas the roofer finds while making those repairs, roofer should check entire roof for areas needing repair'.

What you have done is NOT SAY 'roof is good'.

As for the "past", all you can do is wait for it to go away - waiting while time passes and waiting for a major storm to come through.

Once a major storm comes through, you are off the hook (unless you really screwed up calling a roof in need of replacement as "fair". At least with "poor" you are in a position to say 'I told you it was "poor" and you did nothing, then we had a major storm, OF COURSE the roof failed'.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

Andy Lambert
Member


Posts: 108
From:Providence RI
Registered: Aug 2005

posted December 20, 2005 08:11 AM            

You are right Jerry. The funny (not so)part of this whole issue is that we have had some horrific rainstorms this summer, one of which dumped a foot of rain on that roof in several hours and resulted in massive river and basement flooding throughout our area and I not once received a call from any of my previous clients. I also like your wording and will incorporate them into my report. Thanks a bunch.

Andy

Joe Siegfried
Member


Posts: 619
From:Sacramento California
Registered: Nov 2003

posted December 20, 2005 09:16 AM            

Andy, I use this as a general comment at the beginning of the roof section:

"There are many different roof types, which I evaluate by walking on their surfaces. If I am unable or unwilling to do this for any reason, I will indicate the method that was used to evaluate them. Every roof will wear differently relative to its age, the number of its layers, the quality of its material, the method of its application, its exposure to direct sunlight or other prevalent weather conditions, and the regularity of its maintenance. Regardless of its design-life, every roof is only as good as the waterproof membrane beneath it, which is concealed and cannot be examined without removing the roof material, and this is equally true of almost all roofs. In fact, the material on the majority of pitched roofs is not designed to be waterproof only water-resistant. However, what remains true of all roofs is that, whereas their condition can be evaluated, it is virtually impossible for anyone to detect a leak except as it is occurring or by specific water tests, which are beyond the scope of my service. Even water stains on ceilings, or on the framing within attics, could be old and will not necessarily confirm an active leak without some corroborative evidence, and such evidence can be deliberately concealed. Consequently, only the installers or licensed roofing companies or contractors can credibly guarantee that a roof will not leak, and they do. I evaluate every roof conscientiously but I will not predict its remaining life expectancy, or guarantee that it will not leak. Naturally, the sellers or the occupants of a residence will generally have the most intimate knowledge of the roof and of its history. Therefore, I recommend that you ask the sellers about it, and that you either include comprehensive roof coverage in your home insurance policy, or that you obtain a roof certification from an established local roofing company."

Quote..."roof is at or near the end of its usefull life"

I personally avoid making any guesses or estimates of remaining life expectancy.
When I find a roof in obviously bad shape I'll say this..(with editing to fit the roof). "There were numerous conditions noted on the roof. Therefore, I recommend that a licensed roofing contractor further evaluate the roof and its components as soon as possible and prior to close of escrow. The licensed roofing contractor will be able to advise you on repair or replacement options and costs, estimated remaining life, etc. This evaluation should be performed as soon as possible and prior to close of escrow. Some of the conditions that were observed include improperly installed or missing flashing, exposed tar paper, missing, torn, cracked or damaged shingles and exposed unsealed nails or staples at flashing's, ridge shingles and other areas."

With that said, I have educated the client, discovered & described the conditions observed, deferred the condition to a licensed professional and released myself of liability. If the client fails to take my advice, then it’s on them now. If they take my advice it’s now on the licensed roofer who inspected and guaranteed it.

Questions I would ask them if they called me complaining of a leak and wanting me to pay for it:

1. Did you read the report entirely?
2. When you followed my advice and had a licensed roofing contractor further evaluated as soon as possible and prior to close of escrow, what were the results?
3. You didn’t have a licensed roofing contractor further evaluate it? I regret that you have experienced leaks but I am puzzled as to why you did not take my advice and why my recommendations were ignored. If you had followed my recommendations, you could have avoided this situation.

You have to CYA Andy, no matter how long it makes your report. Find a good narrative report software program and get rid of "Good"..."Fair"..."Poor"

Richard Shaffer
New Member


Posts: 7
From:Marblehead, Ma.
Registered: Nov 2005

posted December 20, 2005 10:15 AM            

very scary,received similar call short time ago. client wanted $2500.condo assesment plus return of inspection fee.My report stated 15 year old roof,may have limited life.Also stated roof leaking at time of inspection.All this one and a half years after the inspection.I'm still holding my breath

Fritz Kelly
Member


Posts: 228
From:Camp Verde, AZ
Registered: Aug 2005

posted December 20, 2005 03:02 PM            

For condos I usually state the problems noted on the roof, the age and general expected life of that type of roofing. I then state "Inquire with the association on how roof replacement is handled and whether special assesments should be anticipated."

Andy Lambert
Member


Posts: 108
From:Providence RI
Registered: Aug 2005

posted December 20, 2005 04:03 PM            

Joe, Excellent work. I like what your report states. May I borrow some of it?

Richard, It is scary because right or wrong just to defend yourself in court costs the same as a new roof. That's why I gave another former client $1,500.00 for half the cost of a new roof. My lawyer had said not to pay a dime but he also told me that he would have to charge me to represent my company in court. His fee? $2,500.00 to start. It appears that more and more this is becoming a new scam by clients who want a new roof years after the inspection is done.

Nobody can tell their clients their roof won't leak for another year or so and this is what is implied when you state that the roof has a limited life expectancy. You're screwed if your too general or too specific.

ANdy

Joe Siegfried
Member


Posts: 619
From:Sacramento California
Registered: Nov 2003

posted December 20, 2005 04:39 PM            

Thanks Andy but it's not my work. It is the work of Porter Valley Software. If you ever get a chance to hear Lorne Steiner or Keith Swift speak near you, it would be worth your time. Avoiding litigation and advanced communications are the two topics in which they speak on. Highly recommended.

[This message has been edited by Joe Siegfried (edited December 20, 2005).]

Ken Bates
Member


Posts: 183
From:Boston Massachusetts
Registered: Jan 2005

posted December 20, 2005 09:49 PM            

Merry Christmas

[This message has been edited by Ken Bates (edited December 21, 2005).]